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Due to the great help on this site, I finally, at age 48, established boundaries with my father, 85 with parkinsons/ dementia /lifelong narcissism, and my 83 year old mom, who was always emotionally abusive to me and has terrible arthritis. She continues to pretend she can care for my dad at home (although she does have night help). Yesterday, I broke my own rules (which I've learned through this forum) and went to see them alone. From the second I walked in, I knew it was a bad idea. My dad got frozen in place, and couldn't move forward. I was watching as his legs trembled and stood ready to break his fall. My mom wasn't around, which is common. He finally got going and my mom appeared. As I laid out the food, my dad starting pounding the table. My mom screamed from the kitchen, where she was hobbling around, "Stop it, right now You're being a pain in the ass." I just looked at her and calmly said, "This is ridiculous. I can't believe he's living here." Then she yelled at me, "Then just don't come around anymore if you can't handle it. This is reality." I should have walked out then, but didn't. As we "ate," i.e. my dad can't really chew yet has a binge eating disorder due to growing up in poverty, I asked my mom for her social security number because I wanted to set her up on the online healthcare portal system of her doctor. I'm allegedly their POA. She hasn't seen a doctor in years, and her memory is seriously, seriously not good. I've accepted we're in dementia territory or, if we're lucky, maybe she just needs an antidepressent (which she doesn't believe in). Her previous doctor retired, so I said, "Let me make an appointment for you. Do you want a female doctor or a male doctor?" And she jumped down my throat and said she'll ask her friends who they see. She's been saying that for two years. Then my dad decides he's still hungry so my mom says, "Let me get you some cheese." She hobbles away to get it and when she returns, I said, "Remember, dad shouldn't be eating cheese." And she said, under her breath but I heard it (I just hope my dad didn't), "Let him eat what he wants. The sooner he dies the better off I'll be." Ouch. I get she may think that. It's normal to think that. But does she have to say it out loud in front of me and my dad? I stayed and fixed their tv and computer, then when I left, she was sitting at the kitchen table stewing in misery. My dad asked how my sister was, and I said, "I don't know. She doesn't call me because she's too busy drowning in misery." My mom said, "Oh you have it all figured out, don't you? I guess your sister and I just have it all wrong because we live in reality." I said, "Reality is what you tell yourself it is in your head." Then I added, "Believe it or not, mom. I say these things and try to get you to a doctor because I love you." And she rolled her eyes. Ouch. I left. My question is - do I take her up on that offer to not go by anymore? And do I make her a doctor's appointment? She needs an antidepressent at the very least. I can call the doctor ahead of time with my concerns. I was thinking I'd write my mom a letter with the date and time of the appointment and the doctor's number so she can cancel it, along with one line like, "I hate to see you suffer so much. Please talk to a doctor about your mood."

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My parents are a couple of years younger than yours, but the situation is quite similar. My dad has dementia, my mom is his caretaker. He is slowly and steadily losing abilities. She has balance and mobility issues on top of some emotional problems. She hasn't seen a dr. in at least 30 years. I am trying to balance being supportive in ways that are accepted and helpful without driving myself nuts. I have made offers and suggestions that she could get medical help, join support groups, go to therapy, have aides come in, but she refuses all this. I have interviewed aides and brought them over, but she rejects them all or fires them after brief periods (one day, two weeks, etc.) She did accept a weekly cleaning service at least. I visited several adult daycares for my dad, these were also rejected. I have visited assisted living and continuum of care places. I do take my dad to all his medical appointments. And I do take my mom out to lunch every couple of weeks and try to remind myself that listening to her woes and expressing sympathy is part of the way I can help. I also help with stuff around the house, which she is interested in. It's hard to watch. But as someone else said below, it's harder to live it. I get that. For a few years I saw the situation as something I needed to solve, like it was my job was to convince her of what to do. Some of that I did and I'm glad. Like getting them to write their wills and give me health care proxy and DPOA. And getting him diagnosed, so he now at least gets meds that help with behavioral symptoms. She was in denial for a couple of years.

Now I'm realizing that there is a difference between what would make my life easier and my mind more at rest, and how she sees it. Maybe for her, waiting to fall and break something is the best plan? Once that happens, it's out of her hands and I will have to make all the decisions for both of them about where they live. I did convince her to let a visiting nurse come in briefly each day when I go out of the country for a week. I told her it was for my peace of mind and she says she agrees.
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Make her an appointment. Try to get her evaluated and treated by the doctor. It seems like neither of your parents should be living alone or without outside help. The help could be as simple as placing them both into a residential care facility through the medical care system.
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Walk away or try to figure out ways to help them. It isn't that easy. I thin if you walk away you might end up feeling that guilt of walking away and not helping them. The reason I say that is because of what you wrote in dealing with the situation you described. Logic vs emotions - you know what 'should' be but the feelings go contrary, in spite the verbal abuse. I know because my mother was extremely stubborn, narcisstic, verbally abusive. No amount of kindness would have changed her - and believe me, I tried - I tried to my own detriment.

Try to figure out ways to help - i.e., make doc appointments, try to hire someone to help - it didn't go well for me. My mother refused any help except mine - even though I would pay for the help - she didn't want a single stranger in her home - the few times I did get someone there, mother would sit there and not say a word for entire 3 hours of the shift. Ended up not even letting the caretaker in.

Your mother's only contact is your father - and because there doesn't seem to be anyone else in their lives, they only have each other to keep each other company and talk to. The bitterness that is spilling over from your mother is probably due to her anger, frustrations and of course, physical pain- all that she knows will not be alleviated, although she thinks some of it might be upon your father's passing - but she will find that nothing about her will change. Too ingrained. Too stuck.

My mother refused to listen to me, my suggestions, my observations. I told her that the way things were going, she was going to fall, break something and then the doctors wouldn't let her go back home and she would have to, at that point, go to assisted living. She didn't believe me. Fought me. At 95 she fell, broke her femur, had major surgery, and passed away 3 months later. Never went back home after her fall. Reason I share this is because for some people, it takes something outside themselves (i.e., fall) to have their lives changed.

Perhaps contact APS as the first step. Let someone else - not you - make the decisions for them, or unfortunately, something else might happen, so that then you are not the 'evil' daughter who forced them out of their home. And please know, given your mother's disposition, no matter where she is placed, she sounds like she will never be happy with anything or anybody. So, at least accept that for your own peace of mind. It got to the point with my mother I had to totally disengage my emotions and feelings when I had to deal with her, help her, interact with her - otherwise I would have been an emotional wreak.
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"do I take her up on that offer to not go by anymore? And do I make her a doctor's appointment? She needs an antidepressent at the very least. I can call the doctor ahead of time with my concerns. ... "

STOP ALL THIS.

1. Call Adult Protective Services:

https://www.cdss.ca.gov/inforesources/adult-protective-services

2. You cannot manage / handle this 'crazy-making'.

3. You are being a 'co-(dependent) is not healthy for anyone involved in this family dynamic.

4. While it is fine writing all this to us, you need to discuss all these feelings in a therapy office. You need emotional and psychological professional support.

5. You are either a POA or you are not.

That you ask us if you should make an MD appt ... reflects your inability to manage all these needs. Report to APS and let them take over. You get into therapy.

And, yes. I would agree. Do not visit. You are not able to set boundaries of your time and abilities; you are allowing yourself to be verbally/emotionally abused, as it appears your father is (too). Do not make this your problem. Get professional support.

Gena / Touch Matters
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Scampie1 Aug 2023
"And, yes. I would agree. Do not visit. You are not able to set boundaries of your time and abilities; you are allowing yourself to be verbally/emotionally abused, as it appears your father is (too). Do not make this your problem. Get professional support."

Someone gave me similar advice year's ago. I was temping at an agency that were advocates for the mentally disabled. The advocate asked me one question: Why do you need to become a guardian when your sister is an adult. My sister was appointed an advocate and an attorney.

I agree with everyone else; there comes a time when you need to step back.
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I don't have any advice, just wanted to let you know that my heart goes out to you.
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ask for palliative care evaluation.. medical precessional will go their house and evaluate..

if your dad is that bad ask for hospice evaluation too..

get both doctors to evaluate your parents.. but that may also trigger a medical person to advice they ho to assisted living… etc…
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peanuttyxx: Edited to say the old adage "you've literally bent *backwards* trying to assist your parents."
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Davenport Aug 2023
: )
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peanuttyxx: For all intents and purposes, you've literally bent over trying to assist your parents. Perhaps APS should be called.
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Perhaps this is the aprópiate time to vamoos. There is no obligation, besides the moral and the lifetime of memories, that would dictate your course of action, but apparently it is not a very tranquil environment, and remarks are not necessarily to your favor. Caretaking is never easy. Either one gets paid well enough to take any kind of baloney, or cares enough to do the same for pennies on a dollar. As we all know it is not an easy task, and many good caretakers go unappreciated for their efforts. Guilt in this scenario is really a relative issue, plus doing this kind of job with doubts can only detract from everyone concerned. Playing the saintly helper has its limits, but the person who provides care must have a clear understanding of why they are taking on this sometimes thankless job.
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You laugh and laugh and laugh some more.

Cover909
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Davenport Aug 2023
Cover 909, I don't understand, Can you please clarify?
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First of all, I understand your mother’s predicament.
It is hard to deal with Parkinson’s.
I take care of my husband with PD and I am decades younger than your mother.
And I have all the help and my husband with PD, no dementia, requires really little bit of help.
And he gets physio, if required very intense, which helps.
And he gets stuck, that is PD, falls will happen no matter what, there are some techniques to prevent it, but, nothing is 100%.
And he eats cheese sometimes.
And I am sure cheese is not going to kill him as Parkinson is not going to kill him. People die with PD not of PD.
Don’t diagnose your mother, help her by arranging respite or physio for your Dad, or anything you deem appropriate.
It is easy to criticize somebody, yet caring for someone with Parkinson’s is hard as this cruel disease changes so being emotionally exhausted is quite common.
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I’m so sorry you are going through this. We keep trying because they are our parents. No matter how awful they are, There is still something that runs so deep through us that we keep trying and trying and trying, even though it hurts us.

I would keep calling APS and report that there are elderly people who are in living alone and need to be monitored or placed.
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christinex2ri Aug 2023
your answer is perhaps the best I've read to date on this site. No matter how kind we try to be to parents/siblings/spouse/partner, once they have it locked in their 'reality' that our attempts to provide care for their wellbeing will always be met with disdain and nasty hurtful comments.
I'm embarrassed to write this. I've been my younger sister's caregiver for over 5 years. In front of her home care team and doctors and friends & family, she professes how grateful she is for the care and attention I've been providing especially in my home when she's needed 24/7 care. What do I get in return in private, that my caring and attention is like living in a prison and I'm her warden. I've stopped trying to hug her even brush her forehead with a light kiss because it is taken as a means to get her way. What is her way -- continue to be a non-compliant diabetic, refusal to follow up with doctor visits, delays ordering her medications/ostomy supplies and more. She is back living on her own (2 miles from me) and she has spent over $1000.00 in groceries delivered -- mostly junk food and deli.
so, I've backed away - I only take her the critical dr appointments in order to convey to our brother what is going on. He does take her non critical dr appointments like the foot dr. and there are 2 others who assist with these appointments. She does have a CNA homemaker (through a state agency) 15 hours a week for grooming, laundry, and light housekeeping which she pays for. Another bad habit she has is constantly buying and shipping gifts to her friends in other states. They've complained to me that most of these gifts are nothing they want or need but don't want to offend her, so they don't return these items and if they do it is for a store credit. They know that she is on a limited income but they like her live in an alternate universe.
I'm working very hard to take care of myself but it isn't easy.
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Walk away. At 85 and 83 respectively, your father and mother are not going to change. And it doesn't sound like you have the kind of relationship with them that would be needed for you to help them. It's not your marriage and home life - it's theirs.

And I must disagree with your statement that "Reality is what you tell yourself it is in your head." You are NOT an 80-something-year-old facing the end of life. Their bodies dictate their realities - and limitations - on a daily basis.

Your mother's mood is understandable. Rather than go by yourself, maybe find someone to help them for a few hours a few days each week. IMO, that will do much more good for your mother's "mood" than any antidepressant. Take some pressure off because, right now, she probably feels like you are criticizing her.

And if your father likes cheese, is she feeding him a pound of it? If not, let it go. Focus on the bigger picture.
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Walk away. You can’t stop this train wreck.
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I would make an online anonymous report to APS, they must check it out. At least then you know you’ve done all you can. I would step away, they are clearly not going to accept the help you are offering and it’s taking its toll on your life with no good outcome.
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Good Morning,

How about a one morning a week day respite program for your dad. If you could find one in the neighborhood that includes transportation--services are offered, breakfast, hot lunch and with health insurance physical therapy, etc.

This would give your Mom a break and dad might like it. At one time my mother attended because I couldn't leave her alone if I had errands or appointments.
But my friend's dad goes to a place he now loves and attends 4 days week. He calls it the Club and has made a lot of new friends and said the people who work there treat him wonderful. My friend can go to work with piece of mind. At the beginning he said, are you shipping me out. Now he loves it! Sometimes these things work out better than you expect.

Home services are wonderful--if you get the right agency, they can provide a lot.
It takes a village--it takes a team to care for a loved one, never mind 2 loved ones. When Dementia sets in the elderly they can't make decisions for themselves. I had to take the car keys away from Mom. But right now my Uncle is in town and is taking my mother out for clam cakes and chowder by the ocean! I am working remotely and Mom gets to spend time with her brother. She is all excited and this evening we will all have supper here at my place!

You have to kind of work a plan and re-configure it as the progression of disease escalates. Good shoes, a walker, I have Mom wear her ID in lanyard around her neck just in case. An Up Walker Lite to get around. Cranberry juice to prevent UTI's. If they are acting too extreme check for infection.

I know it's hard but you want to prevent an emergency which always seems to happen at 2AM on a rainy night when I have no make-up on.

My prayers are with you!
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My mother has Parkinson’s and just goes behind me and undoes whatever I set up.

She doesn’t want to go to a doctor where he’ll confirm that she’s not ok.

In this case I’d hire an outside person with out and family connections or buttons they can push. It’s surprising how different they are with people outside the family.

My mother is narcissistic too and she gets quite a bit a drama going, it’ll only stop when you don’t go there. They have a contempt for kind souls.
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Walk away
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It sounds from the answers like you already made your decision and it is a sound one--to walk away. I just wanted to add some commiseration and support, and also add based on my experience: The solutions we offer the recalcitrant elderly to prolong their lives and "fix" them are like pouring water in a bucket with a huge hole in the side--then trying to put out a fire (That actually happened to me once BTW).
You're putting a lot of your own effort into delaying the inevitable with no result except exhaustion and putting your own self in danger.
Speaking as someone who went to endless lengths--time, money, management--- to prolong my mom's life and keep her safe, the end result was to keep her alive only to have her slip into bitterness and depression and total dependency, along with costly care.
If I'd let her live her life without constantly interfering she would have dropped dead being relatively happy from aFib 6 years ago on the kitchen floor. Instead, all my devices and safety features like a call button prolonged her life. They took away from my own life by my refusing to travel anywhere but to visit my mother for many years (which affected my husband).
I was trying to keep her safe and alive and in the process (again--only to wind up dependent and in a costly facility), I almost killed myself with stress and ripped joy from myself and my family.
As for addressing mood disorders...Not so easy with younger folks--very difficult with elderly. We are talking about not just chemical but lifelong patterns once of which is abusing the people closest to you (happens to me).
My biggest challenge now may be similar to yours: To accept that life has a painful emotional end for those who don't deal with their issues earlier on, before it becomes impossible to do so, and to not let their sadness destroy my joy. I can love myself--and them-- enough to let them be who they are --even if it is sad or miserable. Life is so very difficult for others, but I cannot change that. Take it from someone farther down the road--I tried.
My only, best solution is to allow myself to experience joy and not take on others' sadness. I can then be more helpful to others' who truly want my help.
Good luck to you. I hope you can continue to let go and don't get caught up in the type of mess I am on now for being overly solicitous trying to keep someone alive. I know that sounds harsh but my mom is not a 10 yo or 45 yo. She will not change. I regret all I did to try to make everything perfect for her only for her to suffer more. All I can do is learn from it.
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ventingisback Aug 2023
I understand all you say.

Just reading you, makes it so clear you’re a very nice person.

By the way, you wrote:
“I regret all I did to try to make everything perfect for her only for her to suffer more.”

Believe me, since you’re such a very nice person (your writing radiates it), if you had chosen any other path (helping your mom less), you would have felt bad and really regretted it. You might not even have been able to live with yourself. Some people have to live with guilt all their lives. You don’t.

(Ventingisback)
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You can't help someone who doesn't want help.

You can try to get Social Services to step in. Call local police and ask for well checks weekly. Call neighbors and encourage them to call APS to report vulnerable adults in need of care. Ask those with "standing" in the community --pastor, anyone your mom thinks will criticize placement and ask them to talk to your parents.

But I would stop trying to help. You have a really unhealthy dynamic and it's only making mom dig her heels in.

Perhaps if you step back, placement can become HER idea.
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Call APS immediately because your dad is being neglected and abused by your mother. He needs more help & she definitely does.

Your story sounds so much like my parents although eventually they accepted caregivers.

My mom constantly blamed everything wrong on me and I finally set up boundaries. I refused to visit alone. Limited the time and frequency of visits. She had all that she needed including companionship.

I highly suggest that you go no contact if only for a short time. Let APS make the decisions for their care. Your mom will only get worse.
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I would back off eventually if she needs help she will tell you .
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There are a number of elements in your post that are similar to our situation. Mom took care of Dad for many years. We knew that this was not a good situation for many reasons but it took a situation to change this. There was a power outage and she was using a hoyer lift to transfer my Dad and couldn't do it so she called the paramedics to help her. That is what turned the tide for her admitting she needed help. We had caregivers help till he became unmanageable and she had to place him in a home. She wore herself out going multiple times a day and we finally convinced her to go 1 time/day. Fast forward to today. She is now in a memory care facility after we moved her there for her own safety. She now has a social element to her life, has 3 meals a day and a safe place to be. It was not easy, but necessary and we have come to grasp that the mom who raised us is not in that body very often but we see glimpses occasionally. She is much happier overall and we know that she is where she needs to be.
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Agree APS
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Call APS and report self-neglect of your parents. They sound like they are stubborn and set in their ways. You can't allow yourself to become emeshed in their misery.

I'm in agreement with everyone else. If mom says to not come back here, I would take her up on her offer. Turn them over to APS and be done with it.

Next, I would take a hard look at what your expectations are with them versus the reality of the situation.
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BurntCaregiver Jul 2023
@Scampie

You called it. Call APS and even ask the police to do wellness checks on them.
They'll notice how they live and will take action.
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Call APS and then walk away.
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Take 8 weeks off. You need some distance and time to figure some stuff out. This is my suggestion
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Frustrating as it is, I think you may be in the same location as you've been for a while. Things are not great, but they are stable. Runnning along the same track.

You are still in danger if you board this train.

On board, you can be trapped. Be abused, be accused of interferring when you are trying to help.

Staying stepped back is safer for you. From there you can alert others when the crises happens. Not if - when.

I get you want to help, do something! They seem so precarious!

Myself, when the feeling to swoop in to help bubbles up, I feel it, then let it subside again. I knownot's pointless. Instead, I remember my mantra.

Advise them.
Let them decide.
The consequences will be theirs.
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peanuttyxx Jul 2023
So true. I feel a lot better today. I am not going back for a long time...if that. It's just sad!
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Seems like you have told Mom she has options. Sometimes you just have to wait till something happens. Dad endes up in the Hospital then maybe Rehab. You tell them he is too much care for Mom. Its unsafe to send him home.

At this point Dad probably needs LTC. If ur parents have assets, they need to be split. Dads split goes to his care in a LTC facility. When it starts to run out, he applies for Medicaid. Mom becomes a Community spouse remaining in the home, getting enough of their monthly income to live on and a car. I am just giving the basics, an Elder Lawyer can help and give more info.

You know stress does a lot to the body. My Dad was a pain to live with at times. They were in their late 70s when Dad pushed the wrong button. I thought my Mom was going to have a stroke. She said at the time "When you take those vows, they don't tell you one day you both will be old and your tired of their s_ _ t." My Dad retired at 52 with heart problems. Mom had waited on him hand a foot for 25 yrs. Yes, she made that monster.

You cannot force your parents to do anything. I might call Office of Aging and see if they can evaluate ur parents situation. Sometimes a stranger can get thru better.
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BurntCaregiver Jul 2023
@JoAnn

You make a very good point. Sometimes the "monster" or "brat" is of our own making.

Never wait on a child or adult hand and foot. All people should do for themselves on whatever level they're capable.

Many times a person who is elderly, sick, or handicapped will resent being forced to do for themselves because there are people who want to be babied like an infant and expect it. That doesn't do them any favors though. All it does is strip them of whatever independence and dignity they may still possess.

I've taken my share of insults, resentment, and abuse from clients (and my mother) for refusing to baby them by waiting on them hand and foot.
I won't do it. I never did and I never will.
A baby is supposed be babied. Not an adult.
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If I were you, I'd never darken their door again. If she contacts you and asks for help, maybe.
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