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My Dad lives alone. He was my mom's sole caretaker until she passed in 2020 from Parkinson’s. Dad suffered a couple small strokes after her passing. He recovered well physically and was having some minor memory issues before she passed, but the memory issues are progressing.


He doesn’t drive anymore. I (his only child) manage his finances, hired a cleaning lady, arranged for meals on wheels and do his shopping. Three volunteers from church visit him Mom-Fri for an hour each evening to help him take his insulin and pills and I Handel the weekends. He can still dress, heat up meals in the microwave. I have to beg him to shower and change his clothes but he can handle this on his own. I installed ring cameras to help keep an eye on him.


He doesn’t want to leave his apartment that he’s lived in since he was a child (he’s now 81) but it’s evident to me and my husband that he would be better off in AL. I’m afraid of worse decline if he goes to an unfamiliar place but my family is also in the process of moving out of state to SC and haven’t been able to convince him to move with us. He doesn’t care that AL is so much cheaper in SC than where we live in NY. His finances would cover AL down south with no problem but he’ll wind up on Medicaid here in NY. He’s always been stubborn but it’s frustrating not having him be able to reason… I don’t want to go this route but can he be forced to move if I have guardianship?

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He doesn't sound all that independent to me. In fact, it sounds like he needs half the town to help him make it through the day.

Have everybody stop helping him and the situation will work itself to AL very quickly. Face it, he is already in AL, it's just you and the town doing all the work - for free.
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Di27813 Aug 2023
You’re right…he basically is in AL, but in his mind he’s doing fine and more importantly to him he’s still home.
Am thinking a ‘therapeutic fib” as someone suggested will be the way to go. I’m just afraid of it not working and him digging in his heals …there’s no way I will leave him in NY if/when we move. I am his healthcare proxy and POA. We have talked about him living with us first ( my hubby and college age daughter) but that means buying a bigger house and I’m not sure how much longer I’ll be able to care for him as his needs increase. Lots to think about….just was wondering if guardianship would help or not even make a difference.
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When you say "forced to move" are you prepared for him to physically resist? Because that often happens. My cousin with mod/adv ALZ had to be physically picked up and taken to the ER by her son. Imagine how this would play out with your Dad. If he has moderate dementia/memory loss (hence the guardianship) he is now a lot less able to process the mental and emotional stress of change.

You may need to employ a therapeutic fib to get him to go: "the apartment has a gas leak and the residents need to vacate until it's fixed. We'll vacation in SC while this is being repaired. We have a temporary apartment for you set up until it's time to go back." Something you think he can buy... and hopefully remember. The facility should be in on it -- a good place has seen it all and will be happy to play along.

Good luck -- I wish you success in helping him. Remember to take care of yourself as well!
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Cruzinup Aug 2023
Geaton… it was stated that she did have guardianship. Which is court ordered, unlike power of attorney, which is given by the person and can be revoked by the person.
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If you have court ordered guardianship, then yes you can force him into AL. With that said, he might be so combative they won’t want him… And then the other ‘worse case scenario’ alternative is to just take him to the hospital. Tell them you have guardianship, and that you will not be helping him any longer and that he is an unsafe discharge, and they will immediately put him in a nursing home.

you will know when it comes to this. It will be when you are absolutely at your wits end.
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AlvaDeer Aug 2023
She doesn't have guardianship
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If you are moving and your father is so quickly descending into helplessness then you have a truly serious problem if there is no other family there. Basically, leaving him in his own place sounds as tho a helpless person is simply being abandoned. It's very worrisome.

Will he give you POA?
Can you then get him assessed as incompetent in his own decisions?
Can you get conservatorship for him after an assessment if he will not give you POA?
These are all legal questions if there is no one else in the area responsible to keep an eye on things which sound to be going South figuratively.

Step one is to talk honestly with your father.
Step two is to see an elder law attorney to ask how to proceed, I would thing, if your father is at risk and unwilling or unable to make decisions.
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PS
Di, can you return to your thread and let us know if you HAVE guardianship, or if you are just wondering whether of not to GET guardianship? We are in disagreement as to whether you have it already or not.
Because if you indeed already HAVE guardianship then this move is in your hands, and the decisions are all yours.
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Di27813 Aug 2023
I do not have guardianship. I am his POA and am his healthcare proxy.
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Ah, thank you for clarifying that currently you do NOT have guardianship...

PoA or guardianship, either won't be much help if he *physically* resists leaving. So, start working on a therapeutic fib. Also consider meds for agitation/anxiety before the move if he isn't already on any (and is compliant in taking them). This may help his level of cooperation for the move.

In my earlier post I mentioned my cousin who had to physically be picked up and carried into the ER by her son... she was NEVER that way before her ALZ. She kicked and bit him. So, just because a person wasn't "like that" in their previous years doesn't mean they won't resort to that in the moment. You will need a plan for this possibility. The police won't be of help in this situation.

Are you driving to SC or flying?
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Di27813 Aug 2023
Yes…I’ve heard of people acting very out of character. Most likely driving but I may fly down with my Dad. That’s all still a way off but will have to start thinking of that too. Any advice is appreciated.
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We just went through that. No, you can't force someone into assisted living against their will. You need guardianship which is hard to get as there is a law against institutionalizing someone against their will. You can still see things on your camera, but if there is an incident, someone else will have to bail him out. And dementia can make people as stubborn as Missouri mules. They are also unable to reason. You could take him to visit an assisted living to show him what they are. My MIL didn't want to go at all and would not look. She is in rehab headed toward a nursing home. Assisted living may have prevented this from being nursing home now, but she insisted on living alone. And maybe being lonely without you there will change his mind better than anything. Who will get him his groceries or other things? Is he going to depend on people from church every day for his meds? I think you need to have his friends all help you convince him he should move to wherever you are.
The familiarity of a place is sometimes someone that old people cling to. He's probably clinging to the familiar. We could not move ANYTHING in my MIL's house even for safety reasons.

If only life were more easy when people get old.
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Di27813 Aug 2023
So very true…aging can be so very difficult for the person and their family.
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As DPOA for my mom (activated due to her incompetence from dementia), I filled out paperwork for AL and moved her in. She was against it but didn't fight too hard.

Get a good fib ready and get things moving along. DO NOT buy a bigger house for him to live with you. You will regret both aspects in a very short amount of time. Instead get him to go with you and straight into a nice AL near your new place in SC.

He may not like it but that's really not the point. He needs to be safe and cared for and you need to do what you need to do and have a life.

Best of luck.
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Di27813 Aug 2023
Thank you so much. I’m thinking AL close to me will be the best for him and me.
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You can only take over your dad's affairs (in most states) if:
1 - a medical doctor declares him mentally incompetent to handle his own affairs.
2 - You possess the Power of Attorney or similar legal document (that he has authorized) to give you the right to make decisions for him.
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Di27813 Aug 2023
I have POA. What more would guardianship give me?
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Going back to the first answer, Dad is NOT independent. He is being propped up by you and lots of others. He is also being propped up by your assurances and his belief that “there is no way I will leave him in NY if/when we move”. Especially by the ‘if’.

'Forcing him into care' is not going to go well. He needs to find out for himself that he can’t cope on his own. Sack the cleaning lady (who probably does other jobs as well), and stop doing his shopping. If that seems a bit harsh, taper it off so he runs out of things he likes.

Perhaps discuss the situation with Meals on Wheels. You arranged it and are probably responsible on their books. If you get yourself out of responsibility, he may find it difficult to sort it out again (and food is the quickest and safest way to make it clear that he needs help). Also discuss the problem with the Church ladies, so they know what is going on. Say that if they continue, they will need to take over the weekend med shift as well.

Good luck!
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We had to get our mother's POA turned into a guardianship "mandate" by the provincial court in Canada. There are similar laws in most parts of Canada and the USA. We had to get a lawyer, social worker, friends of my mother, her doctor, and the courts involved and it took about 6 months. Start early and be prepared for frustration is the best advice.
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For me it was easy because he went from hospital to facility. I told him it was a hospital and that the doctor has to sign off when you are better then you can come home. However yours will be harder I'm betting but this is what my friend did... he made arrangements with the MC facility and hired movers set a date and had his MIL items moved to the facility while he and his wife took MIL out for the day. Instructions for the movers were to set up the room as close as they could to the house they were moving from. Took a lot of coordination but it worked. When they brought MIL home (new home) they just talked like it was home and saying things like... oh I'm so glad we are home, isn't it great to be home, let's have dinner and just acted as if this is where she lived forever. Blessings for you and your family.
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How severe is his dementia? Sometimes you just have to wait for an incident that will trigger placement. Something that lands him in the ER like a fall or a bad UTI. From there you tell them he lives alone and is unsafe in his house and you can not take care of him. They will help get him placed. Once he is placed in NY and his apartment is cleaned out and no longer a option you can work on getting him placed somewhere in SC near you.

You could also try a fib that he is going to come live with you and once there take him to the place you picked out saying his room at your house is still being painted and will take a little more time to get ready for him.

It sucks, but almost every single person I know who has had to put their parent in a facility has had to do it by covert means.
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Are you financial POA or are you DPOA which in only activated when your father is declared incompetent by two doctors?

Unless he is declared incompetent, you cannot make the decision about where he will live.

If he is determined to stay put, he can hire home help for more hours each day or evening.

When you say he will not listen to reason, you are basing reason on your own definition.
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I don't know where you are located, but where I live, you can report self-neglect of an individual to Adult Protective Services if you think a person is not getting adequate food and hydration, taking their medications, paying bills on time, keeping up with their hygiene and other living aspects of life. One thing about elderly people is that they may think they're okay, but to someone who is witnessing their behavioral changes, they are not. Also, be prepared for show timing episodes to fool social workers and medical workers into thinking they don't need the help. It may take a couple of tries before something actually gets done about their situation.
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Go ahead and move. After you are established, go pick him up and bring him to the "GREAT NEW PLACE."
Tell him it's where he lives now.

Then go clean out the old apartment.
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Confer with his PCP for your father's current " level of care needs assessment". You may take him to his PCP ( tell him for checkup before you leave) and, ask his PCP to provide him and you with his care needs assessment. Perhaps talking about the situation with your father in presence of his PCP 's input may ( or may not) help father agree . Tell him you recognize and respect the grief he feels with moving but it is for his safety and well being that he be cared for closer to you. If the PCP declares your father competent for making his own decisions, go ahead immediately and get POA and other decisions making documents put in place in case you need to make decisions for him. The PCP can refer you to a geriatric social worker case manager who can help with options . You may benefit from consulting with an Elder Law Attorney to determine your accountability, responsibility etc and your Father 's rights as you navigate this precarious field of elder care, safety, patient " rights", legal decision making( who, what,where,when ,why etc).
Practice self care and make your move to SC. Try your best with the help of the above professionals to get him moved with you. But you can only do so much if the doctor seems him " competent" for making his own decisions. You could try a personal appeal to your father like asking him if he would move with you to help you out....reduce your worry etc etc.
Be sure to tell his PCP all of the description of how he is receiving help now in his apt. This may be a big part of PCP or geriatric SW assessment also .
Practice good self care !
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MACinCT Aug 2023
Perfect answer Janice. He may need to have help set up before they move away. The OP may want to express to dad that if anything happens to him like an accident, he may have to end up in LTC and never to see you again because once he becomes bed bound there will be no way to move him to SC, which I agree, there are lots of places to live near the larger cities that are less expensive than NY
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Can dad manage Activities of Daily Living (ADL) with helpers? If yes, he stays in his home. If no, you have the metrics for a move.

https://www.seniorplanningservices.com/files/2013/12/Santa-Barbara-ADL-IADL-Checklist.pdf
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My MIL (stubborn on steroids!) refused to leave her house for 2 years because of her fear of going to "a home". After her 4th fall and stint in rehab (she is a night owl and roams around naked refusing to use a cane or walker), she broke her shoulder and 3 ribs. So off to ER she went, then to rehab and hubs finally has had it (waiting for THE CALL) and she is now in a very nice Board & Care. In their Trust (Dad died 3 years ago) - hubs became automatic POA when she became incapacitated. He is now the decision maker. If your Dad has a Trust, call his lawyer to see if that is the case with you. IF you are his POA, you can "force" it, it won't be pretty but before a major incident, you need to put on your Hard Hat and find a safe place for him. ps - MIL really thought she would die at home but instead was having falls, which led to injuries - she could have broken her neck but still be alive and in even worse shape. She is safe now - unhappy as heck but safe.
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FamilyNeeded Aug 2023
You can fall in these places just as easily. In fact falls usually increase because of all the drugs they put them on. They like to give them sleeping pills and anti-depressants which is the LAST thing you should give someone on dementia. They start falling and loosing the ability to even speak.

These places are full of lazy people who do not care and just want to make their own lives easy. So they drug everyone. Not the way to live your last years. Forced into a place without even asking you what you want and then just leaving them there to be neglected and often abused too,.
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WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT TO YOUR FATHER? I get so upset with people when they just want to dump their parents. Don't force him into any of these places. You have no idea of the amount of abuse and neglect.

Try to find in home care for him when he needs it. If he is on medicaid there are programs that will help fund his care and needs. One of the places we have here also allows family to be paid care givers through there program. He can choose who he wants for caregivers.
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Lmkcbz Aug 2023
What about all the elderly that refused to plan for the inevitable and expect their children to sort it out for them, putting their own lives on hold?! You’ve heard the saying, “your failure to plan does not constitute my emergency?”

Why is finding in home care for somebody else our responsibility. Isn’t it the job of the person that needs the help to find the help?

Most of us here tried to warn our parents for years about the inevitable and they happily stuck their heads in the sand … then disaster strikes and it becomes the problem of the kids? Most of us tried to get our parents to accept in home help and they weren’t interested for whatever reason. Don’t be a burden on your family. Make your own arrangements and don’t expect others to pick up your slack. You are kidding yourself if you think it’s reasonable to expect children to put the prime of their lives on hold for an elderly parent who already had the prime of their life. It’s really selfish.
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Please consult your Elder Law Attorney about hiring a public guardian to watch over him in his state.

(copy and paste)
https://projectguardianship.org/issues/guardianship-in-new-york#:~:text=In%20New%20York%2C%20there%20is,other%20guardian%20can%20be%20found.
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Short answer:

Yes

Longer answer:

Only if they have been found by a court to no longer have capacity. The court will have medical experts conduct an evaluation to determine this. If they determine that person does not have capacity they will appoint a guardian. From what I have been told, courts are very conservative about taking away individual rights and the person would have to present a serious danger to themselves or others for a court to rule against them.

In your particular situation I doubt you would be able to obtain guardianship as your dad seems to have capacity. He needs help, but that is not enough to obtain guardianship. If for whatever reason you did obtain guardianship then yes you could force the move.
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"Dad, we are moving and we really want you to come with us. You can have your own apartment and be independent. The weather is much milder so you can be more active and get out more, and we will be nearby."

If he agrees, find him a nice AL and be ready to move him there, NOT in with you. (That rarely turns out well.)

If he says no, and is competant to make that decision, then that is what you have to deal with. Make sure he understands that the offer to help him move down is open if he changes his mind. Expect him to, about the time the weather gets bad and he is all alone.

If he cannot manage on his own that will quickly become obvious even to him. Just make sure you have fiscal control so that he doesn't become a victim to an opportunistic "helper."
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I’ve just read a post that says “These places are full of lazy people who do not care and just want to make their own lives easy” and my jaw dropped when I realised that the poster was talking about the STAFF. The people who are overworked and underpaid, and usually do their best in difficult circumstances.

My guess is that ‘FamilyNeeded’ is one of the horror elders who EXPECTS family members to care for her while she does nothing but criticise. And perhaps thinks that she Needs Family (Needs a better Family) because the current lot have given up in disgust.
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MargaretMcKen Aug 2023
She "gets so upset with people when they just want to dump their parents". Bring it on, dumpers!
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Yes and No
If he is still competent then you can not "force" him to move.
Do you have Guardianship? Or will you have to obtain it?
If you do not have to become his Guardian don't do it.
If he is still competent, (most lawyers will have a conversation with a person and if they determine that he is competent then you would be better off getting POA for Health and Financial matters.
Getting Guardianship is expensive and it is a LOT of paperwork.

Moving him will set him back a bit. Does not matter if you are moving him to AL where he is now or in SC.
You can tell him that you are moving.
If he is decisional he can make the decision to move with you to AL or remain where he is.
Is it possible that with the help of the people that come in and help care for him that he could remain where he is? You would probably have to hire people to come in on the weekends. If this is not possible (and I would do this only if he is healthy and the people that come in can be trusted to continue to do so.) The advantage of him staying where he is he has a friend network where he is, he has a community where he is comfortable and knows the area.
The big disadvantage is that you will be hours away from him if something does happen.

The safest thing to do is to tell him that you are moving and he has to move as well. Your next trip to SC you should scout a few AL and find out what requirements are needed. (health forms, TB skin test (or blood test).
Prepare for him to decline, maybe dramatically.
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I moved to SC from NY around 6 years ago. I am also an only child and I was moving my mother to an AL facility here from one in NY. It is true that prices are certainly less here but they are rising. Certain parts of the state are more reasonable.

Have you explained what your absence would be like in your father's life? It sounds as though you are involved with different aspects and the loss of that would make a difference. I don't believe you can force him but I would hope that you might be able to persuade him. How does he feel about being more alone without all you do?

Have you visited facilities in SC? I wonder if any literature about places might help him see an alternative choice. I know my mother did not want to age away from me. I hope you find a solution to this dilemma.
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Di27813: Perhaps you'll have to come up with a therapeutic fib. Currently he is far from independent as you are covering many of his needs. You move away and oh - oh, there goes his support system. However, you need to have your own life; I'm not advocating that you shouldn't.
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If you do anything, I would do it while you are in the same state.

I live in California and this was what I was advised to do by a memory care supervisor. I had POA, My husband had dementia and would not go to a doctor. He had lived in our home most of his life. APS said there was nothing I could do, because he had "rights". The supervisor said no one wants to go to menory care and gave me some "magic" words to use. I called 911, told them I was his wife, I had POA and he had dementia. He needed to go to the hospital for an evaluation. It worked, the medics came in, he fought them off, they wrapped him in the sheet off the bed and carted him off to the hospital. The plan was the memory care would pick him up. but it turned out his kidneys had failed and he had only about 10 days to live, so I canceled memory care, we got hospice and brought him home. He lasted just a few days, but he was pain free.

I would try to get him to a doctor to see if he has dementia,
Stop all that help coming in and stop enabling him .
Since you have POA talk to his/your attorney to see where you stand legally, then act.
You can always get him moved after you are moved.
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